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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15841
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light, or Cal scout 1 eq.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm over its fellows.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15841
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm. Because over a year ago, I got the Amarr logi because of the sidearm and nothing more.
I got a titan for its AOE DD your point?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15841
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I got a titan for its AOE DD your point?
Not being an EVE player, but I was under the assumption that the AOE DD was changed because it rekt everything? I just don't understand the need to change this.
Go back to my first post in this thread again then and I want you to seriously think about introducing every single class in dust 514 with these stupid nuances in weapon arrangement between every race and tell me its fine line of thinking.
EQ and Weapon slots while having the weakest weight in terms of balance meta scores you have to understand that unlike normal high and low slots these slots are multipliers in their effect of the overall score.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light, or Cal scout 1 eq.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm over its fellows. It's what made it different! The description described the amarr logi as a combat oriented support suit
Descriptions change all the time though as well as roles. I dont expect amarrians to have the drop uplink bonus forever a year form now I expect to see amarr equipment bonuses instead after races start to come out with thier own solutions to sisues.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Go back to my first post in this thread again then and I want you to seriously think about introducing every single class in dust 514 with these stupid nuances in weapon arrangement between every race and tell me its fine line of thinking.
EQ and Weapon slots while having the weakest weight in terms of balance meta scores you have to understand that unlike normal high and low slots these slots are multipliers in their effect of the overall score.
I've already read it, and if suits were to the extent you've said, it'd be a big problem but I still see the sidearm as nothing more than a cool little perk for using the worse in every way then Gallente suit. John Demonsbane wrote:
What? You haven't been roflstomped by the q-synced teams of Amarr logis slowly swarming around and wrecking everyone with their OP sidearms? It's the new FOTM, get with the times, dude!
Was too busy being an Amarr scout. Compared to most suits, everything wreaks.
I see a second grenade instead of a side arm as a perk. and everyone uses that class because of the number of grenades.
Or back to the highly protested idea of a minmatar logi having two sidearms. instead of a light weapon.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15842
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote: they CAN'T give us a second grenade slot without a client side update which will never happen so what you are saying is F*CK Amarr logis so I will respond with an equally heart felt F*CK YOU too...
Congratulations for failing to see the point.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zelda Harkinian wrote: I thought changing stats, numbers, modules and slots were some of the few things that they COULD change without a client update. o_O
Dual grenades is a behavior not in the game yet. Would require making grenade slot 2 a thing in the client as we only have one grenade slot currently. SDE makes this evident.
Second aspect of this is the UI and control; How do I swap a grenade?
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Lol we are a a bunch of whiny gitz aren't we......
Me- Amarr HAV Aisha- Amarr Scout Aero- Amarr Commando Vithar- Amarr Logi?
AMARR HAVS will not feature a large turret but instead 4 small turrets.
Minmatar will feature 2 large turrets but no small turrets.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.07.10 03:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zelda Harkinian wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Zelda Harkinian wrote: I thought changing stats, numbers, modules and slots were some of the few things that they COULD change without a client update. o_O
Dual grenades is a behavior not in the game yet. Would require making grenade slot 2 a thing in the client as we only have one grenade slot currently. SDE makes this evident. Second aspect of this is the UI and control; How do I swap a grenade? oh, ok. I guess that makes sense. so what are a the things that CAN be changed without needing a client update?
the list of that is still not fully explored hence the little sections ccp rattati has put out in the charlie narrative.
We know Range can now be altered without a client update (was not before) Damage Types Natural Resistances is a case by case basis it seems still. New types of items with altered stands from the original lots of things too many to list.
it may be much easier to list things not changeable without client
IE new guns. sounds, music, map sockets and unpublished behaviors (ie the more unique it feels the less likely its something tweakable a possible case example the remote stickies)
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.07.10 04:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vitharr Foebane wrote: they CAN'T give us a second grenade slot without a client side update which will never happen so what you are saying is F*CK Amarr logis so I will respond with an equally heart felt F*CK YOU too...
Congratulations for failing to see the point. the point is CCP wants to castrate the Amarr Logi and I don't intend to stand idly by and watch it happen... you ever have to desperately hold off enemies while your team/squad spawns in on your uplinks? Think you could do it without a sidearm??? thought not...
Actually I have; pretend to hold a position of importance draws quite a bit of ire and constantly falling back when proper works out to a good degree on a light weapon reliant class.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.07.10 04:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:IWS you just fail to see none of us give a flying donkey's ass about an extra slot. Before the dropsuit respec I never even once said "hmm I wish my Amarr logi had more equipment that I won't use" because the three equipment I had keep my team alive and well (rep, nanite, spawn).
Im always running out of equipment and ammo.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15844
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Posted - 2014.07.10 06:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zelda Harkinian wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Zelda Harkinian wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Zelda Harkinian wrote: I thought changing stats, numbers, modules and slots were some of the few things that they COULD change without a client update. o_O
Dual grenades is a behavior not in the game yet. Would require making grenade slot 2 a thing in the client as we only have one grenade slot currently. SDE makes this evident. Second aspect of this is the UI and control; How do I swap a grenade? oh, ok. I guess that makes sense. so what are a the things that CAN be changed without needing a client update? the list of that is still not fully explored hence the little sections ccp rattati has put out in the charlie narrative. We know Range can now be altered without a client update (was not before) Damage Types Natural Resistances is a case by case basis it seems still. New types of items with altered stands from the original lots of things too many to list. more vanity suits perhaps? (^_~ ) anyways, so as not to derail the thread... is there a reason for side-arms to be removed from the amarr logi that would make sense? I'm not talking about making it more in line with the other logi suits, I've read some good arguments on why they should keep their side arms. But what is your reasoning behind it? do you see some sort of unfair advantage that is apparent on the dev side of the game?
I did a couple of exercises including intention role, purpose, function environment, past faults, current analysis and future complications.Then ground zero design thrown in with the same exercise applied to it. Which is why all the other examples of the why is the amarr logi the sole anomaly in the entire game like this? If the game was striving for this level of uniqueness then it would serve a far greater purpose to have every race and class justifyingly as unique creating a myriad range of 40 classes rivaling warframes 24 even. But we don't we have 12 classes 13 if you include the amarr logi.
So walking through some portions of the exercise.
Intention Role Exercise Why Logistics? What makes it Amarr stats wise? Who do I imagine using the Amarr Logi? How are they going to use the Amarr Logi? What does the Amarr logi need to do for that desired goal? +Why^5? Each answer until satisfactory.
Purpose Exercise What if / then this?
Function Environment What does the physical environment have to do with it? What does the other player have to do with it? what does the allied player have to do with it? What does the hostile player have to do with it? How does it change the game? How does it change the game mode? Where does the emotional use have to do with it? Where does the victimization feel?
Past Faults Who Designed the original Amarr Logi? What was their original goal and reasons? Technical Limitation? Content Limitation? Emotional Limitation? Economy Limitation? What issues have this or similar items caused direct in the past? What issues have this or similar items caused indirect in the past? What issues have this or similar items direct solved in the past? What issues have this or similar items indirect solved in the past? Consistent Shortfalls? Consistent Strengths? Alignment to role, environment, function and intention results?
Current analysis What is the current joy with the item? What is the current item's influence on the game's joy? What is the current item's influence on other players joy? What is the current item's influence on the user's joy? What is the current strife with the item? What is the current item's influence on the game's strife? What is the current item's influence on player's strife? What is the current item's influence on user strife? Are there similar items to this in influence or role? Is this item superior or inferior to it directly? Is this item superior or inferior to it emotionally? Is this item superior or inferior to it skillfully? What is this item teaching new players?
Future Complications What new features would disturb this item? What new items would disturb this item? What evolution can this item take? What future roles can be explored with this item in upcoming environments? Consequences leaving as is?
Zero Day integration Remove previous item from history; and try to reintroduce it as is now.
This of course is a sample of the exercise.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15854
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Posted - 2014.07.10 16:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:IWS you just fail to see none of us give a flying donkey's ass about an extra slot. Before the dropsuit respec I never even once said "hmm I wish my Amarr logi had more equipment that I won't use" because the three equipment I had keep my team alive and well (rep, nanite, spawn). Im always running out of equipment and ammo. *points to side-arm* love it, praise it, kill with it!
In both weapons.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.07.10 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Alright, so to actually give proper context. This is solely about equalizing the slot numbers and equipment ability for all the logistics. The sidearm slot for Amarr logistics isn't causing any specific concerns
However, I am actually open to the possibility of adding a second logistics variant (using the same skills, think the old Type-II) for all races that has an equipment slot traded for a sidearm, plus possibly a few base stat nerfs (not sure what yet, I'm just a little worried that these new logistics would crowd out actual assault suits).
However, that's a fair bit of extra work. Thoughts?
I say go for it even if it misses charlie's deadline.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15875
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Posted - 2014.07.11 01:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light, or Cal scout 1 eq.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm over its fellows. ever play as an amar logi? or a logi at all? we are the most vulnerable merc on the field as it is, unless we set our suits up to slay.... with how slow amar already is and having one less slot than other variants that side arm provides a versatility in play style and a needed advantage in staying alive. play one for a week in PC, or at least in pubs with stacked teams and maybe you will understand better.
Yes, I do play; feels like a slow useless scout suit most of the time when trying to play into its strength with inclinations to be using equipment that is more slanted for repair and restore as opposed to be used for offensive equipment usage.
The strongest and best scoring use I ever felt the amarr logi was in front line support; as in repper tool and nano hives and injectors with scrambler laser rifle with sidearm unfitted to get the best gear I can shove onto it; where its tough enough to survive most glancing attempts to kill me as I keep others alive in the field of fire out of cover. At lvl 3 between the amarr assault and logi and scrambler I feel just as strong as each other offensively with the use of grenades and the main weapons; without specialization into lvl 5s the gulf in the scp's heat management is barely notable especially in the hands of people who operate the rifle in proper cadence and a management. Majority of my deaths have always been mid mag and mid heat cycles; rarely reloading; rarely empty and more commonly full mags. The only real downside is how quickly the nano hives pop when doing the front line support and that extra equipment slot would be so much more useful in this endeavour as I am always running out of equipment on many of the configurations. I cannot play into the suits strengths and its far too easy to play into its weaknesses making the suit far worse than it really is.
In terms who's the better uplinker? It would be the Gallente scout; gets there faster and quicker and away without being detected and doesn't have to dedicatedly defend the spot. Far too often if I try to play the amarr logi he get caught far too often; or someone bashes the uplinks, or just as bad nobody on my effing team uses it when its prudent too.
I can see why some of the guys thinks its an assault type II suit.
and if you want to call me a scrub; by all means; but this is how I feel what this suit teaches to do with it; which is basically screw the bonus and play into its natural stats strengths instead. The uplink bonus feel worth it at lvl 1, lvl 2, or lvl 3.
If you want to talk unique' the amarr logi offers little uniqueness in comparison to the amarr assault or amarr scout or commando.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.07.12 03:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Seymour KrelbornX wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light, or Cal scout 1 eq.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm over its fellows. ever play as an amar logi? or a logi at all? we are the most vulnerable merc on the field as it is, unless we set our suits up to slay.... with how slow amar already is and having one less slot than other variants that side arm provides a versatility in play style and a needed advantage in staying alive. play one for a week in PC, or at least in pubs with stacked teams and maybe you will understand better. Yes, I do play; feels like a slow useless scout suit most of the time when trying to play into its strength with inclinations to be using equipment that is more slanted for repair and restore as opposed to be used for offensive equipment usage. The strongest and best scoring use I ever felt the amarr logi was in front line support; as in repper tool and nano hives and injectors with scrambler laser rifle with sidearm unfitted to get the best gear I can shove onto it; where its tough enough to survive most glancing attempts to kill me as I keep others alive in the field of fire out of cover. At lvl 3 between the amarr assault and logi and scrambler I feel just as strong as each other offensively with the use of grenades and the main weapons; without specialization into lvl 5s the gulf in the scp's heat management is barely notable especially in the hands of people who operate the rifle in proper cadence and a management. Majority of my deaths have always been mid mag and mid heat cycles; rarely reloading; rarely empty and more commonly full mags. The only real downside is how quickly the nano hives pop when doing the front line support and that extra equipment slot would be so much more useful in this endeavour as I am always running out of equipment on many of the configurations. I cannot play into the suits strengths and its far too easy to play into its weaknesses making the suit far worse than it really is. In terms who's the better uplinker? It would be the Gallente scout; gets there faster and quicker and away without being detected and doesn't have to dedicatedly defend the spot. Far too often if I try to play the amarr logi he get caught far too often; or someone bashes the uplinks, or just as bad nobody on my effing team uses it when its prudent too. I can see why some of the guys thinks its an assault type II suit. and if you want to call me a scrub; by all means; but this is how I feel what this suit teaches to do with it; which is basically screw the bonus and play into its natural stats strengths instead. The uplink bonus feel worth it at lvl 1, lvl 2, or lvl 3. If you want to talk unique' the amarr logi offers little uniqueness in comparison to the amarr assault or amarr scout or commando. the amar logi's bonus (while lacking imo) is uplinks... so I don't get why you are using hives and reps.... you are not using the amar logi to its strengths. the A logi is slow yes, but it's job is to keep the push going by putting down links and then guarding those links ( hence the importance of a side arm.) you are slow because uplinks don't move so you don't need to keep up with them, you also have a better tank to make sure you can hold that position while your team spawns in. how ever if you want to be a mobile A logi then that's when you call out your LAV (or better yet dropship) using its speed to get you to the desired location for your links and then defending them.... the AV variant of the A logi is very usefull in securing link locations on towers while fending off any dropship that may be trying to over take you until your forge gunners spawn in... so no IWS I will not call you a scrub, but I will say that the responsibilities of the cpm have kept you from playing enough to truly understand some of the finer points of battlefield detail and strategy.
Speaking of vehicles there is a serious issue of lack of incentive for using a MCRU there are just often too much time when a vehicle has a spawner and nobody uses it. Some of the issues surrounding the reason why though is the same exact reason why link play is generally downgraded as well.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.07.12 21:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am having a hard time understanding the logic behind the needs to have a side arm.
Its along the same grounds as taking away minmatar grenade slots. Subbing Gallmando's second light weapon for a side arm. And giving Min logi two side arms instead of 1 light.
If we had to introduce the class (under the context it never existed before) in charlie and not since the start we'd be mocking the mere stupidity of giving one class a side arm. Because over a year ago, I got the Amarr logi because of the sidearm and nothing more. I got a titan for its AOE DD your point? Bad analogy. No one ever questioned AOE DDs usefulness or power. They were removed because of obvious gameplay reasons. It seems people do regard sidearm as useless trash no one wants. Mr Thundergrooves point is that is has a need. Nevertheless AOE DD =/= logi sidearm.
Despite how bad that analogy is; CEO Pyrex was exceptionally upset the aoe dds were removed. It still does not change the fact that there are very specific ships eve pilots train for because they offer something no other option offers and they oft feel short changed when the nerf bat looks their way.
I knew plenty of pilots that trained for the Moros because of the drone bay. I knew pilots that trained Ravens because they could stack torpedo vollies. I knew pilots that trained Apocs to shove 8 auto cannons on it and 8 Gryostabs. I knew plenty of pilots that trained not only for the Machariel but all the interceptor like skills and implants and massives amounts of booster and research to make a battleship go 14km/s The list pilots who were overly fond of the things they trained expansive and rather wide in what sort of things pilots train for. The thing is we typically forget the small changes some pilots absolutely despised. It can be simple as 1 slot on a highly unpopular ship and it doesn't make headlines because its not a fotm ship and all of these changes have always been in the name of balance.
So the question is what is balance? you can look at spreadsheets all day but if play behaviors mutates the stats beyond intended then; When do we consider it wrong?
Am I wrong to use the amarr logi to use a medic? Should you nerf that? There are those who will oddly say yes to that. Are those who use logis to kill people wrong? Should that be nerfed? I think not; REs and Proxies and Light weapons are sufficient in that deal as well as a generous tank. Are those who use logis to uplink also wrong? Should that be nerfed? I also think not; its a valuable tool set keeping the front lines restocked.
The overall major problem is though are any of these players being disenfranchised because they picked poorly? Are there other classes that does the job better than they can? And oddly enough from my point of view the latter of the two are a resounding yes; Amarr are severely under classed as a support class. Maybe its because I can't proto; maybe because I don't PC that much. Maybe uplinks themselves are broken. Maybe other players I observe feel similar to the way the logi bonuses are and don't use them often. Maybe players don't trust most uplinks I have still have a massive annoyance with public ambush uplinks because just far too often they're placed to only farm points as they're often in line of fire of the enemy.
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